142787-suggestion-daily-account-bound-cap-on-votes-to-kickdisband
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Don't only blame the people who are impatient. Also blame those who queue up for content unprepared and the game for not making it clear that they are unprepared. (I have not kicked a person for not being unprepared, but am seeing a lot of them queuing up, and this only contributes to the problem). Without thinking about it too hard, I don't have any issues with your proposal. I'm not sure if it would actually help, but don't really see a downside (since I've maybe kicked one person in the entire instance of the game besides those who asked for it, literally). Not sure this is relevant, but I also don't solo queue as tank any more because I'm afraid of getting undergeared groups. Thus, I always make sure I have at least one solid DPS with me first. This may be tied to my reluctance to kick people and my insistence on trying to help out even if it's a lost cause. | |} ---- Now that's true. Also, if *everyone* in the group has this cap, and you've maxxed yours for the day ... what's to stop you from sending a tell to another non-newbie in the party and get THEM to facilitate the vote? Finding two other jerkwads in the PUG queue ain't exactly hard to do. Especially if the newblet makes their newbiness known to the whole group. Newbie: "How does this fight work?" Jerkwad 1 is out of Kicks. Send tell to Jerkwad 2 "Ugh. We got a newbie. Can you vote to kick please. I am out." /votekick Edited October 12, 2015 by TexArcana | |} ---- ---- I'll quote from a post in another thread that precipitated this suggestion. | |} ---- I've never had anyone try and kick or disband because someone didn't know the fight. It's always after multiple wipes without progress or someone queueing up with gear that will never let them pull their weight. Do you honestly think people should be expected to do Ultimate Protogames with someone who's ilvl 50? | |} ---- ---- I do. But I also realize that groups of 3-4 people can join the queue to stack the deck and dominate the vote. I'm not trying to limit people from the ability to kick out particularly egregious problems. But if you farm queues and pugs dozens of times a day and quit/kick more often then not, you are abusing that system and need to form a guild/premade group. And to be clear, the reason that I'm suggesting that Carbine check the metrics is because they are the only ones who can tell whether this is a significant problem or not. The rest of us are all, by definition, going off of anecdotal evidence. | |} ---- Yeah this is what I came to add. A 'premade' of 3 friends has an undue amount of power right now, and if it is being consistently abused something needs to happen. I'm actually trying to remember the discussion threads when vote kick was being added, because I honestly thought there already were limits. Obviously if it is a consistent problem, whatever they did wasn't enough. | |} ---- Yep- I've seen it. But we're looking at a handful of experiences. It's awful when it happens- I just don't know that it's an epidemic. | |} ---- I'll point out that most of the players who are farming dungeons with premades aren't going to kick a player who doesn't know the encounters because that player will most likely not matter to them much one way or the other*. You are talking about a very specific subset of players who would be this mean and feel an entitlement to /kick players. Probably players that are Vet Dungeon geared or in the beginning of GA. The guy who was kicked 6 times doesn't sound like he was doing vet content, which makes this even weirder, because I don't think players are "farming" normal level dungeons (well, not without a geared 50 is who pulling them through). *this exception to this would be a healer, especially for UPG and SSM. | |} ---- I am indeed talking about a small subset of players, thanks for explicitly drawing attention to that. I will not pretend to know what their gearlevels are, nor will I claim to fully understand their motives. What I do care about is that phishing the queue for PUGs is a great way to expose new players to a gauntlet of kicks and disbands while they're trying to progress. That seems like an extremely bad idea and I don't believe that any of us in the playerbase is in a position to accurately assess how serious that problem is or contain it if it is serious. | |} ---- ---- ---- Truth be told, anyone who initiates or votes yes should lose their random bonus and be prevented from joining the PvE que again (after the instance is done) for 30 minutes. Not applicable if your team voted to disband. There are problems for that one as well (people would be jerks and go afk to force people to kick them or carry them) but it would stop people from being willy-nilly with it I would think. The most I would do if I wasn't in the mood to deal with players who had never been to the instance... leave the instance myself. | |} ---- Great, thanks very much. That's as much as I can ask for with the information that we as players actually have. :) | |} ---- ---- I agree with the Eldergem/Glory/Renown.... bonus for having 1stimers and new young players. best way to better the community is education, not elite'ist keeping those who have the potential to better the MMO community as a whole down. several long standing MMO's do this, and it gets the vet players the teaching hats to help new players understand and get better. .. if you want speed run's. dont pug, but then again, you dont get the bonus if you dont bring new players or 1st timmers on the run. makes the whole MMO community for "said game" 100 times better.. | |} ---- this goes in the correct direction but i would rather take the guy with runes and 2000AP/SP and +5amps/aps than the guy with 2500AP and 20 higher itemlvel who does not have a rune in it and 3 amps/aps. gearscore is a terrible system. | |} ---- That's a really good idea. Carrots for good behaviour = happy jabbits. e: or maybe a bonus of some sort if you complete a pug dungeon without using the votekick function. Edited October 13, 2015 by Lori | |} ---- Definitely NOT a good idea. There are valid reasons to vote kick someone, and one of them is if the person ASKS to be vote/kicked. Which in itself is a problematic thing in and of itself, but someone who is being NICE by initiating the kick shouldn't be penalized (we do this all the time in guild groups if we want to sub someone in). | |} ---- ---- This shouldn't happen with the kick limit, as this is really aimed a pre-made groups who are kicking outsiders. Again, which I'm not sure there are that many, but I don't really see a downside. The lone l33t player who can't handle the heat of all the noobs is still going to whine "kick me" and do nothing until it happens (as a rule, if people are nice about it then I generally do the kick, but if people are jerks, I tell them they have to quit on their own and take the debuff). "Hey guys, I think this group isn't working, can you kick me?" is something I will consider. "Hey, you noobs need to learn to play. This game isn't hard, just kick me so I can find a real group" will NEVER result in a kick from me. | |} ---- ---- ---- This is not true, in and of itself. People should be punished if the way they enjoy the game is to make it less fun for others. Though perhaps not punished by Carbine- but you can't be surprised if there are consequences for being a jerk in game. Edited October 13, 2015 by SlyJeff | |} ---- the question is who is the jerk. is it the 1 guy in green who expects to be carried or the 3-4 others who prepared their gear/runes/amps/etc to finally do this prequest and go raiding? the borders are obv more blurry that this example but you get the point... everyone here agrees that the dungeons are way more enjoyable if you dont pug them. same for the raids. and that is what the PvE players want. content that is no faceroll. | |} ---- I recall in a recent live stream with the Blade & Soul team, this very discussion. A story was told about how the CM need to keep asking the Devs in Korea to fix yet another exploit that the 'west' (I use the term VERY loosely as live in a 'Western" country in the "East")......... and the Devs would constantly be amazed due to the fact it was never a issue in the 'east'.... not an invite to expand on the racial happening of peoples | |} ---- I was addressing the statement as unqualified. I agree that queuing up deliberately undergeared is a jerk thing to do. Ha- well I enjoy pugging a lot of the time. I am careful about how I do it though. I only solo queue as DPS, because solo qeueing as tank is no fun when you end up with a group of completely undergeared folks. | |} ---- I wish I could say this was true I was in an SSM last night we made it to the fire boss with only one wipe. The fire boss we wiped a couple times early as people learned the fight or started to remember it then we started to constantly get the boss down to 5% or less everytime. Our healer bailed, I get 6 wipes with only 4 of us being alive most of the time is tough, then our tank initiated a vote disband which a couple of us declined. Then he typed "disband please". The new player asked "why", and he said "because I can't carry you". Personally I think with a few more attempts we would have gotten it down and the rest of the way is pretty cake until the last boss. The thing it makes it tough for new players to gear up when they only get to see two or three bosses ever and it also makes it so you can't rock attunement through the GF. I might be the only one but I think raiding GA with a group of under geared players is easier than running a 5 man pug dungeon. The fact that voice chat and leadership are available are huge. I think we are also overstating that this wasn't a problem before F2P, it certainly was. Now it is just being magnified. The probably is there is an easy way out, you vote disband and everyone can just re-queue with no penalty. It's great if you get a tank or healer with no support gear, or dps that is pulling less than 1k., but it also means groups that are going to be able to finish a dungeon together often don't get the chance, because 3-4 wipes is just way to many.... Anyways creating a bad experience for so many people is going to backfire and maybe leave us in the same spot we were before F2P. A lot of what I hear people saying is join a guild, get a group from there. The group finder doesn't exist to only service premade guild groups. In fact I would say it was created to for just the opposite reason, to get people playing in the wider community at large. I also think that the gear check is something players aren't used to. In other games you hit 50 and start running dungeons, dungeons at max level have different difficulty levels and you gear up doing them and progressing. In Wildstar dungeons basically have on difficulty level. Can you pull a STL or KV out with less gear probably, but maybe not. Adventures don't get the amount of play they should, because sometimes they are ridiculously long, and you still have the chance of earning nothing. I started a new character went on the AH and bought a full set of ilevel 54 gear 2-3 plat and started doing dungeons. Now I have a few dungeon pieces and can pull some decent dps 5ishk, but when I went into my first STL I was doing about 1800-2k. Granted I know the fights so i lived but hey it was a small miracle. Edited October 13, 2015 by bbates024 | |} ---- ---- ---- A few weeks ago, I would've argued against some kind of minimum gear score--but it seems like a much more reasonable idea in light of the fact that players ding at 50, get the attunement quest, and are told to go into the dungeons. I have no doubt that most of the players who go there are simply trying to do what they've been told to do. Honestly, even a quest as part of attunement before the one sending folks to the dungeons that just says "Improve Your Gear: Reach An Average Gear iLevel of 70 Or Higher" and notes for players that they can improve their gear in any of several ways through Vet Expeditions, Vet Shiphands, PvP, Crafting, or even the Auction House if they're in a hurry would probably remove most of the problem with undergeared people trying to get in. That being said, I expect that at least some players who want to farm the dungeon do not view the intended minimum gear as anywhere near what they would consider the minimum gear for a team they're willing to actually run with, and this will not address that problem. I'm fine with this one as well--I don't see a downside to it. I really think that a cap on votekick/votedisband is not an issue of "punishing veteran players" and putting it in those terms is a mistake. I expect that most veteran players do not abuse the vote kick/ vote disband functions, they use them as they were intended to be used: for extremely problematic players and instances that are genuinely a lost cause. But signing up for a random dungeon bonus and then queuephishing until you land in STL with a full group of overgeared players is not what that system was ever intended to do and it makes it very hard to do certain instances without a full premade even using the queues. That's a problem for the entire playerbase, not just new players--although it certainly hits new players more than everyone else. If you only want to run a particular dungeon, you should not be signing up for random dungeons in the first place. If you only want to run with a team that has specific characteristics, you should not be in the queue until you have that team. It is not "punishing" players to limit their ability to spam a function that was never meant to be spammed in the first place. | |} ---- This is tricky, because there are loads of players who enjoy the dungeons as they are, and for the game to adjust them means changing THEIR expectations. But then, this is he discussion we always have. But anyway, of the newer players I've grouped with the fast few weeks, this was the only player who seemed to get too frustrated by the content. And later on I did a KV with him and he had a great time. | |} ---- ---- ---- It's not perfect, but it is indeed a giant leap about the current situation. In order to truly fix it they would have to add an average rune level as well, but I imagine if they ever did implement it that would be some ways off. Maybe I could have worded that better, but the point is that it is limiting players that use a feature the game provides as opposed to solving the problem at its root. I genuinely believe that the veteran or long-time players are more likely to use the votekick function as opposed to fresh players, but that's irrelevant; at the end of the day it is up to Carbine to create a system where players don't feel compelled to use the votekick as much, if at all. The current system creates a huge divide between the power of players entering instances and that is mostly why these problems are arising. | |} ---- ---- ---- No- they made epic gear available for non-gold at a lower drop rate. And then they made gear progression MUCH better in future drops. I'm not sure what you are thinking about . . . | |} ---- They removed guarantied epic gear from gold.. and killed the adventure queue | |} ---- Adventures were still run for quite a while after that. I know because I hit cap right after the change and had no problems getting lots of adventures. It was only later that the queues died down. "Gold or Bust" was terrible for the game. | |} ---- I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Gear progression hasn't been a problem since drop 3. | |} ---- ---- And yet all we have had since is band aids and a lot of promises " in the future" What we need is a real LFG/matchmaking system, so people can do group content with like minded people | |} ---- is this thread about gear progression ? did u read my second sentence? | |} ---- ---- Sorry, I'm having trouble following you. You called gear "retarded" earlier, which I assumed was bout gear progression. So your problem is not being able to not dual queue for adventures and dungeons? OK, yeah, I want that some day as well. But that seems way off topic and not related to kicking people, "gold or bust", or "retarded" gear at all. | |} ---- How is it not related ??? We literally had this thread back then, with all the same stupid ideas how to prohibited kick/disband... and as i said, carbine solution back then was to remove secured epic loot from gold, which just made crafted gear even more bis(AND YES IKNOW ITS NOT THE SAME GEAR PROGRESSION WE HAVE NOW!) and no, i dont wanna multi queue for adventure / dungeon, i want the option to avoid new / bad geared players, etc. | |} ---- ---- Thats why i want the options to filter out people that has never been in the dungeon before, never done silver / gold, insufficient itemlevel, not full amp/ability, etc. | |} ---- Fine, but this is still not really related to the "fix" for "gold or bust". Remember, the whole goal of putting those items in adventures was to give dedicated adventurers a stretch goal, not a farming necessity for hardcore raiders. When it clearly became the latter, Carbine changed it. I remember all the raiders complaining about the need to farm these, and it was a good change. Very few people enjoyed the "gold or bust" grind. | |} ---- ---- ---- Are you talking normal dungeons? Thus far I've only experienced STL normal, I've done about 4 or 5 runs with all of them being successful, and one even being a gold. None have been premades. My experiences in Vet dungeons have been a little different, though. | |} ---- ---- Being expected to drag a clueless undergeared player through content they have no business attempting isn't being a jerk. Neither is kicking them for it. There are restrictions on content for a reason. People that spend the time to learn the content and gear appropriately for it shouldn't be made to feel like jerks because they don't feel like carrying someone that wishes to bypass the hard work and skip right to the rewards. If the people doing the kicking are being verbally abusive (the only way I can conceive your above quote to be true), that is entirely another matter; but no one said anything about that, only kicking inexperienced / undergeared players from the group. Like I said, you can white knight this cause all you want. It's not going to change a single thing. You play your way, and that's great. Nothing wrong with having people that have the patience to hand hold new players, everyone starts somewhere. However, it shouldn't be expected of everyone, and others shouldn't look down their nose at people that don't wish to play in that manner. That's what I meant by allowing people to play the way they wish to play. | |} ---- Once again (I already responded to this once), I'm explaining why the specific statement I quoted is not true without qualification. I never said that people should carry those who queue undergeared. In fact, I made a post a few months back about addressing that very thing, and you'll see I had strong words toward those who queued undergeared expecting a carry. | |} ---- ---- This is perfectly reasonable, and a way all decent people should be. | |} ---- ---- ---- Strongly disagree with the suggestions on how to fix it. Instead of more rules and checkboxes, you need to hand more tools to the players. Let them fix the problem by controlling the situation themselves. You list your group, dexcribe what you are going to do, and pick a category to list it under. That's it. So if you are looking for a group for Dungeon X, you click the Dungeon X tab. Read the group adverts. Adverts contain a description, and the names of everyone currently in the group. If you see one that says "50 Vets ilvl 90 only" you know that's going to be an elitist group and can avoid/seek it out according to your own preference. Now, this assumes that people will be honest in their descriptions, there will be bad apples. But now there are tools and information to help you spot and avoid them, rather then being at the mercy of a mindless matchmaking algorithm. | |} ---- Yes a system like this would likely work well. But it's something totally different to the LFG system already in place. Unless Carbine are willing to scrap that and build something better or entirely different (they should but likely won't) the best we can probably hope for is some refinements to the current LFG system. | |} ---- ---- I agree with you that large power discrepancies are probably driving a lot of this behavior. But asking for a more advanced matchmaker system puts the solution off indefinitely behind a significant development effort and testing phase; a cap on votekicks requires a counter and an "if... then" statement. I expect that their metrics will inform them about how many players rely on votekicks more than a few times a day, and help them in setting a cap reasonably--presuming that such a cap is deemed necessary at all. At the end of the day, Carbine cannot create a system where players never choose to be *cupcakes*, and nobody is compelled to be one in this game or any other game that I'd ever be willing to play. All it can do is limit the options available to people who make that choice so that they can't do widespread damage while they pursue their own agenda at the expense of everyone else. | |} ---- This was also a problem with other games, the solution they made was simple, if you queued up with 3 ppl , then you need the 4 th vote for it to pass If you queued up with 4 ppl , then you absolutely cannot kick the 5 th guy :) | |} ---- Except that this behavoir is new. As someone who 'came back' about 3 months before F2P went live, and switched factions when doing so - I was in all the lowbie dungeons on what is now my 50, BEFORE f2p hit, when most of the people around me were old hats on alts. Never got voted out. VERY OFTEN had people stop a dungeon run just to explain mechanics to me and thank me for rejoining the game. I like the OP's suggestion of a limit on kicks. I think it should be coupled with a system that checks two of your stats before letting you queue for a given piece of content: First stat being either attack or support power - depending on the role(s) you're queued for. This would require saving your 'lastAPValue' and 'lastSPValue' for this checking, and using it to do the check if you are not currently in that role - so that you could queue for both roles. Said variable being whatever your value is right before you change LAS to anything that flips whichever of AP or SP is higher. - pretty simple logic to test. The second variable would be saved alongside the other one, and would be the higher of one of two other stats that Carbine decides is key to that class & role. - So if Carbine decides that 'Deflect Critical' and 'Deflect' were the two for a Stalker tank - it would record whichever of the two of these was highest anytime it recorded or checked your Support Power... Then you just set minimums for all group content for these values - by the specific dungeon, vet dungeon, adventure, or shiphand - tests which are not run against any group that enters the content either by walking in or with a fullgroup premade selecting a specific dungeon (but if a premade chose 'random' it would still run the test to determine which dungeons/adventures to pick from). | |} ---- This is close to the Guild Wars 2 LFG tool - and its been quite successful. I actually agree that it would be a better idea to use, instead of the random dungeon tool we have. To improve it, make the 'iLevel' requirement an field you can enter a value in, and people cannot join your group unless they meet that value. And add a field for 'support / attack' power as well - people could set up tests on those values. BUT I would NOT allow fields for testing against any other stats... as while it would be fair for Carbine to make such tests, the community doing it would resulting in people forcing cookie cutter builds on the playerbase. And quite often the popular cookie cutter builds are NOT the best ones, and even when they are they're not the best for some players. I also suggest NOT listing the names though. Edited October 14, 2015 by Kichwas | |} ---- This is absolutely brilliant :) | |} ---- Yep. I tank and heal over on FFXIV anytime I'm in an MMO that isn't Wildstar. This is a great feature. You also very quickly learn that "newbies" are NOT 'noobs' once you get over them being around. I find groups with newbies have no more difficulty than groups with experts if the team is willing to work together and the people who know are willing to teach while the people who don't know are also willing to learn. The 'newbie bonus' is a very keen feature over there and if I recall rightly, it was specifically added to stop people from constantly booting newbies out of groups... Some of my best groups in all the MMOs I've played have been when I had a lot of newbies around me and so they all got to talking as a way to figure the thing out. Even if I've been an old pro in those groups, I've let them 'talk it out' because its enjoyable to be around people who are fresh and enthusiastic about what you're doing. In fact, in those moments when I end up in GW2 again because I'm looking to see if I can 'get into it' again... I will use their 'manual LFG tool' as a way to screen FOR newbies. I look for groups that advertise things like "taking it slow" or "won't skip" or "we're new to this" because those guys all have FUN while playing through it, and I'd rather spend 2 hours having fun in a dungeon for a few gold, than 10 minutes for that same gold but while putting up with attitudes, or even just with rushers when I'm wanting to relax. Edited October 14, 2015 by Kichwas | |} ---- ---- ---- A win-win-win solution ...... what's not to like? Sounds far too sensible and FUN to get implemented in Wildcore though. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ----